Question:
How CERTAIN are you of your "purebred" horse's lineage?
anonymous
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
How CERTAIN are you of your "purebred" horse's lineage?
Eighteen answers:
mtn.flyfish
2009-12-17 20:58:50 UTC
I'm confident of the lineage of my horses. DNA testing is sorting out the chances of cheating and even if the registries didn't require it, I do.
Driver
2009-12-18 02:47:10 UTC
The difference between people and horses is that there are no fences separating men and women, so these "accidental" breedings would be much more common in people than horses. I'm sure there are some horses out there with dubious pedigrees, but I think it would be a pretty small number.



I have two purebreds, I guess. One is a Chincoteague pony born on the island, so almost certainly has Chincoteague parents. He's not registered. The other one I think is pure - her father was the only stallion at the farm, and both her sire and dam came from places that bred only that breed. It really doesn't matter to me anyway - I've never bred her and you don't need papers for eventing.
priehl
2009-12-17 20:46:27 UTC
There are plenty in the APHA and AQHA that aren't right. My step-dad used to talk about a horse trader that had a file box full of registration papers. People had the option of buying a horse with or without papers (without was cheaper). If they bought a horse with papers, the guy would dig through his file box and find some random papers that the sex and marking matched somewhat, and sell them with that horse.



That was in the 1960's and 1970's.



My husband just happened to train a horse for this traders son (long after the horse trader had passed away). The son said that when they cleaned out his house, they retrieved that file box and another desk. Both were still loaded with registration papers of who knows what.
A
2009-12-18 07:11:10 UTC
That's pretty interesting!

I honestly wouldn't mind if my horse wasn't purebred, but he's been DNA tested and registered.

:)
ms manners
2009-12-18 03:03:56 UTC
I dont know - over the years, I worked at four different ranches where horses were bred - all Arab.



Three of them only had one mature stallion on the premises, so even if there were an accidental breeding (very unlikely, since both mare and stallion would have to break out of their stalls or corrals), there would be only one possible sire. Any male horse on the premises who was not breeding quality was gelded by the age of one.



The fourth facility had four stallions, but they were kept in stalls and had no access to the mares, other than when the mares were brought in for breeding.



Horses (unlike people or dogs) are generally carefully contained, and in my experience, accidental breeding just doesnt happen.
?
2009-12-18 01:59:47 UTC
i've never had any doubts about my registered horses since they were arabs (DNA typed) and a thoroughbred. however, there was a woman i used to board with who had a registered "quarter horse". as lovely as he was, there is no way he was purebred. he was massive with muscling like a draft horse. he was a lovely dappled grey with a wavy mane and tail. i'm utterly convinced he was part percheron.
PRS
2009-12-17 22:27:29 UTC
Oh well if you want to take that one step further....how many dishonest breeders are out there that claim their mare was bred to stallion A when stallion B actually bred her and they know it? I KNOW this practice is rampant in AKC so why not AQHA or other breeds. I'm fairly certain that my horses sire is actually his sire because they share so many characteristics and I absolutely KNOW that my father is really my father....the nose I inherited is absolute proof to me.
Tina C
2009-12-17 22:07:55 UTC
I think there are disturbingly many horses with false paperwork. I work with allot of danish warmblood breeders (I ride and train dressage horses, I don't breed myself) and I've experience some disturbing sign that even reputable stallion stations at times try to cover up there little misshapes of inseminating the wrong mare with the wrong stallion and so on. For example a Blue Hors Don Schufro foal born dapple grey, Schufro a dark chestnut and cost fortune to have inseminated. There was no doubt that blue horse had inseminated the mare with the wrong stallion, but blue hors denied it and refused to pay back the stud fee or change the paper works. Lol this foal has the perfect dressage pedigree on paper, but it grey and it looks like a show jumper.



I've also picked up a two mares that had been put in the wrong stable under the wrong names and had then been inseminated with the right stallion, but of cause it was the wrong mare. But when I pointed out the problem there was a hassle of activity and paper work was changed and the mares owner didn't have to pay, but still if I hadn't noticed the mistake, the foals would have the wrong paper work. I returned with a dressage mare inseminated with Ulrik Z(show jumping stallion) and a showjumping mare inseminated with De Noir( a young dressage stallion)



Katrinelund and Blue Hors are huge international stallion station, and when the professionals make a few mistakes, you know it's pretty bad.



Edit: No "Anna & The Peanut " I haven't worked at blue horse stud, that would be my worst nightmare lol. I work at my own barn, training and selling horses from a number of small breeders, I also play horse chauffer as I have licence of drive both truck or horse box. These two stories are simple the ones I've experience but I heard even worse stories especially many about blue horse stud. Many of the old life time long Danish warmblood breeders I work with, refuse to send there mares to blue horse, because of mistakes, neglect/ill treatment of their mares. But then again all I've heard are stories and seen that grey foal by Blue Hors Don Schufro: http://www.bluehors.net/cms/index.php?idcat=18&changelang=2

And no they did and have not returned/payback the stud fee and the breeder did try legal actions, but didn’t get anything out of it, don’t know the specific details



P.s sorry about the miss spelt words the yahoo spell check isn't that great, nor is my English :)
Bree J
2009-12-17 21:36:56 UTC
When I looked at the papers after I bought my horse (I didn't really care about it as either way the horse was gonna come home with me :P) he was DNA tested with the Arabian Society in Australia and he was 100%, so I have to say I'm pretty confident about that haha.



There are probably more falses being sold than we could know. People may not know that their "purebred" isn't pure when they're selling unless they've registered the foal. Then there are those that conveniently "loose the papers" when selling their "purebred". All you really have to go off is the word of the owner and these days, the word is usually crap. Unless you have proof on the papers.
Dunfilly
2009-12-17 20:25:24 UTC
Oh, I'm certain there are alot of horses out there that aren't what they are supposed to be gene-wise. For example: my filly's dam (purebred APHA, bay breeding stock) was sent out to a ranch to be bred to a Homozygous (sp?) black and white APHA. When Flower was born, she was born a bright red dun! I guess they also had a Grulla "mutt" (mustang or something else, can't remember but it wasn't a Paint!) at the ranch too... Gee, I wonder who the daddy was! Fortunately the mare's owner refused to register the baby, so now I have a mutt (who is a great horse!). I do know of several other instances personally, so yes, I do believe it's a fairly common occurrence!
Anna :)
2009-12-17 15:59:03 UTC
I have no doubt you are right and there are horses out there that are unknowingly not quite what they were claimed to be. But I would imagine that the statistics are not quite as high as they are for people (1 in 20 - wow, that’s a lot - Cheating is rife).



I breed warmblood x Thoroughbred horses (only a one or two each year at most) and I often look at the foals I breed and think, mmmm that semen I imported really could have been from any horse - and I wouldn't know unless I did further checks!! LOL!! We are relying on the studs integrity and efficiency at having sent the correct semen (and our vets to inseminate the correct one too). Definitely room for error to occur, hopefully not 1 in 20 though! (I don't DNA check my horses foals, but if something that didn't look right came out I might... a pony or coloured horse? He he). But I would be very happy for anyone to DNA check them before purchase... no-one bothers though, because if the horse can really move and jump - that is what you are paying for. Different then if you want a "pure bred" Arab for showing. Most horses I sell, people dont even remember who it was that I told them the stallion and mare lines were and don't really care. It is only if they decide to breed later with a mare that I may get a phone call to remind them of the parentage. My mares are thoroughbreds, but are warmblood foundation mare registered too just in case anyone does want to register a foal.



However, I have little doubt as to all my ex-race mares parentage. The racing industry in Australia take few chances, and I assume this is the same in most countries. When dealing with the massive stud fees of a racing Thoroughbred no owner would leave anything to chance. With stud fees commonly in the tens of thousands AND for the good sires, hundreds of thousands... Would you leave anything to chance?? No horse can legally be registered or race in Australia until an independent vet has blood typed it to match its parentage. Also there is no importation of semen in the racing industry here yet. Every race horse has to be conceived naturally (hence the existence of shuttle stallions from overseas). This is to limit the chance of a mistake. I worked on a large racing stud many years ago that stood 6 stallions and had approximately 380 mares to serve in one stud season. Every mare wore a tag around there neck and the tag was checked before they were served, as were brands and markings via the mares papers that always accompanied her. It was quite amazing how efficiently and well set up these big studs are.



All day, everyday for three months every year was spent teasing, serving, and scanning. I never recall an error. So I would say if you have a thoroughbred with racing papers, you need have little doubt. I would imagine DNA testing may come into it these days, I am not sure anymore? It was 10 years ago that I worked in the industry. They were all just blood typed to confirm parentage then.



Most other studs simply don’t have all these checks and balances in place the way racing studs legally HAVE too. Some do by choice I realise, but not the majority, In fact with warmbloods if you by three straws of semen, and get your mare in foal with just one, you are allowed to inseminate any of your other mares if you feel like it with the left over straws or sell them on – no extra charge, no need to register any of them if you don’t feel like it, because with performance horses (dressage, showjumping, eventing) no-one cares quite so much how they came about so long as they can do the job (it is a good idea to keep a record of parentage of course). “Mutts” of both known breeding and unknown breeding are common place in the performance horse world :)



EDIT: I should add that I only breed quality horses, none of the offspring of which are purebreds and all of which are bred to perform, out of mares that have proven themselves to me in competition and soundness. I have no interest in purity - that means nothing to me or to the world of eventing. Can the horse move? Can it jump? Does it have good conformation and a good temperament? If not... then in the performance horse world, it won't matter how pure and how many DNA tests it passed... no-one will want to pay much for it. Most of the top performance horses in the world today (warmbloods) are of mixed heritage and would not be considered "purebreds". If we found out today that a stallion like Donnerhall was a "mistake"... we would still breed to him because of his type and what he throws.



EDIT: Tina C - Did you mean you worked at Blue Hors Stud?? (Your spelling is wrong?). I looked at a stallion they stand called Blue Hors Romanov... link....

http://www.bluehors.net/cms/index.php?idcat=23&changelang=2

And Blue Hors Hotline (I posted a link to one of his beautiful sons recently).

I cant imagine that they would not give a 'free return' or money back for a mistake like that?? If I got a grey foal from semen from him to my bay mare - I would definitely want compensation such as a free return or my money back. They would not have a leg to stand on and would be leaving themselves wide open for litigation otherwise!? Dissapointing to think, I as a small time (mainly for my own use) breeder, am so careful and honest, that a large stud such as them, would do be so careless and then fail to take responsibility.
GOODD
2009-12-17 20:38:02 UTC
Fortunately the difference between the 5% of kids (which isn't a staggering number at all) having mothers who slept around and fathers too dumb to get a paternity test and the owners of purebred registered horses is that the horses a lot of times are artificially inseminated. My trainer's horse has been bred three times and she's never been covered by a stallion. If the facility has a stallion the mares won't be accesible to the stallion. At the dump barn I used to board at there were two stallions but breeding was very strictly controlled. Unless the stallions learned how to let themselves out of their stalls, in with the mares, then back into their stalls without anyone knowing it's not possible.



I think the only false purebreds out there are the "Walkaloosas" and the "pintabians".
AllAroundQH
2009-12-18 00:13:44 UTC
Haha, that's kind of a scary thought (the part about people).



The horse idea is also kind of scary--hence the reason backyard breeders should quit. I'm sure it does happen, though, if DNA testing isn't required (and especially on locally bred type horses who aren't being publicized or standing at stud).



My QH gelding was DNA tested because when he was registered upon birth, he was registered as a solid bay (no white markings). Turns out he has a tiny bit of white on the back of both rear coronets, and it's not very noticeable--but since it was a discrepancy, they had to DNA test him to prove he was the horse his papers said he was. ha :). I really don't know about my half-Arabian (who is registered as a half-Arabian but is technically a 3/4 Arab and 1/4 ASb), but his breeders were small-scale and only owned one stud, who always threw pinto babies--so I figure the chances are pretty good :) haha.
Saddlebum
2009-12-17 23:18:08 UTC
I think there are a lot of false purebreds around. I think the reason is because of certain breeders who lie about it. Maybe in a certain area pleasure bred horses that have Pine Bar in them are popular, the breeder can lie and say that its a Pine Bar bred horse when the horse really isn't is.

I had that happen to be when I got my first horse.

That's one reason why I'm not a huge fan of AI. Just like my trainer taught me, I look into their linage. We also breed from reliable breeders, primary I breed with a person I know very well.
anonymous
2009-12-17 20:25:40 UTC
I bet quite horses are not the 'purebred' breed that they are said to be, or are thought to be. I know a lot of people lie about their horse's breed when they are selling them, too.

That number really is staggering. 1 in 20. That is crazy.

"horses have sex with a lot lower moral standards". lol That made me laugh.
Yohanson
2009-12-17 22:44:11 UTC
It's probably about 1 in 35-40. That's just my guess, because most of the time the horses are watched when bred, or kept in the same pen.



I guess I'm not positive if my horse's parents are legit, but he is registered. I'm pretty sure I'm related to my dad, because I look like him and act like him.
Ehawlz's Ghost
2009-12-17 20:53:55 UTC
Well, I only have one horse right now who has papers, she she was bred by my parents. I'm 100% sure of her parentage, as she looks exactly like her father. XD

She oozes the same kind of grace, and beauty that he does, as well.
IT Ninja
2009-12-17 21:40:36 UTC
In my opinion, most a probability false. People want what they have to look better to sell it for a higher price. I would recommend using a DNA test.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
Loading...