I'm tired of it. Pleaseee helpp?

Question

My horse is very big and very strong. He's completely determined to show everyone that he doesn't have to do what we say. When I'm riding, the bit has virtually no affect. He trots like the devil himself is chasing him and canters like hes in the kentucky derby. (lol im in a simile-y mood) I can get him to stop (usually) but it takes some jerking. I always start off asking quietly and get more and more demanding the longer it takes for him to respond, so it's not like I'm abusing the poor pony and he's in so much pain he doesn't know what to do. I've had him about 6 months. I started out riding him in a french snaffle d-ring then recently switched to a regular german silver loose ring. He acts the same for both bits. I do (or try to do) hunt seat equitation and a little dressage. I've been thinking maybe I would try switching to a pelham bit for a little while then if he started respecting it a little more, I could switch back to the loose ring. I don't wanna keep getting harsher and harsher bits, but I think he might need it. He's a strong trekhaner.. so... idk. what do you think?

note: I'm asking your opinion on pelham bits and if you think it would be good to try one on my horse. I don't want to hear how I need my horse to respect me more or how stronger bits are not the answer. I've been using very very mild bits on him for as long as I've had him with no improvement. Please don't answer unless your answer will help me in some way. I'll be asking the trainers at the stables their opinion, but I'd like to hear yours as well. Thanks for your help!

Answer 1

"he's not in pain. hes just a jackass." - Ha! Sorry, I know the feeling...

Before you try going as strong as a pelham, try a jointed kimblewick and then a straight kimblewick.

I used to have my boy in a plain snaffle and he would take forever and a day to stop, then I changed him to a jointed kimblewick and he actually stops now. It still takes a while for him to stop (I actually get in trouble at Pony Club because I take "too long") but since I changed bits, it doesn't take nearly as much time as it would with a snaffle.

Good luck with your boy!

Answer 2

How many circles do you do? How often are you doing the canter going down the long side of the arena? He doesn't stop because he doesn't have to stop. You didn't mention if you were trying to stop with one rein or two. If you pull with both reins he will just brace into your hands and go faster. If you just pull your inside rein - yank it all the way around to your hip - he WILL stop. He has to. He can't run forward when his head is facing his butt.



Do you use a flash on this horse? If he's opening his mouth, even a little, he's completely evading the bit and giving you a great big F U. You may not need a harsher bit if he has to listen to the one he has.



If your horse is supple and on your aids he will stop just because you push your seat into your hands. Lots and lots and lots of circles and don't canter until you get the trot.



You may also need to face the fact that you are overmounted or possibly have a dangerous horse and he needs either a more experienced home or a rider with experience with dangerous horses. Sometimes it's not a matter of a bit or your riding or his experience, it's just a bad match. It happens and that's the biggest problem with trying to have a partnership with a living animal that's 10x bigger than you.



Btw, if you haven't already it may be worth your while to have him x-rayed to make sure there's nothing going on in his feet that might be causing him pain (you never know).

Answer 3

This will sound a bit different to many people but I had the same issue to a lesser degree w/ my OTTB. I switched to Dr. Cooks bitless bridle and he LOVES it. I have never had a control issue w/ it and my horse loves to give playful bucks at the canter out on the trail but has never gotten his head down. I have ridden him w/ this bridle for 6 years now and he is happy, willing and does not rush forward w/ his head up anymore. Once in a while I use a snaffle bit ( if we are at a show) and his old habits do not reappear. I love this bridle and never worry about some one else riding him and hurting his mouth. I know many people are skeptical but my partnership w/ my horse has been changed for the better.

Answer 4

My question for you is how are his manners on the ground?

Will he stop?

Will he back willingly?

Will he give his neck to either side with minimal pressure?

Can you move his front and back ends independently?



I grew up taking lessons in english hunter/jumper/dressage barns and now mostly ride western, and I have to say that what I've found to be one of the biggest differences is that a lot of english horse people(and I 'm talking about high level riders) write off their horses bad behavior on the ground as them being "hot", or eager, or energetic, and somehow thinking that it will hurt their performance to expect them to behave all the time. I have since found that there is a direct correlation between a horse's behavior on the ground and under saddle.



So ask yourself can I stop him on the ground without pulling? If you can't, then how do you expect to do it from the saddle?



My horse gets strong at the faster gaits, but he will give easily to light pressure in a D-ring snaffle.

Your horse has learned to lean on your hands.

What you need to work on at all speeds is getting him to give to the lightest pressure possible every time, and when he gives you need to give an immediate release of pressure as a reward. Start on the ground and then move to the saddle.



Good Luck!

Answer 5

Your horse needs training. If you are jerking on his mouth, so do you. Can you bend your horse to a stop? There is no such thing as a horse with a "hard mouth". There are a lot of horses that have taken so much abuse in their mouth, they just constantly wait for the next attack -like this horse. It doesn't sound as if he has ever been ridden by anyone who could communicate with him on a level that he understands. Changing bits is not the answer. You didn't want to hear that but that doesn't change the truth of the matter. If you cannot help this horse, your problems will continue and probably get worse. If you can't control his mind, you will never successfully control his feet.

You have to be flexible, more open minded and willing to change in order to help him. You decide.

Answer 6

Sounds to me like you have a ROGUE on your hands, and a DANGEROUS ONE at that. This horse CLEARLY has NO RESPECT for anyone or anything, and you need to either send him to a strong trainer who isn't afraid of him, or GET RID OF HIM BEFORE HE KILLS SOMEONE ( who incidentally just MIGHT BE YOU) or kills himself. Somewhere along the line, most likely before you ever came into his life, someone ROUGHED this horse up, HARD, and taught him to HATE people. Then, at some point, someone else who was totally ignorant and knew nothing took the animal on and allowed him to learn that when it comes down to a contest of pure physical strength and nothing else, HE was ALWAYS GOING TO WIN. THAT'S what makes this horse so dangerous- horses like this are a threat to themselves and to other horses, as well as to people, and I am AMAZED that you haven't ended up in the ICU or the morgue before now.



I would see if you can find a trainer who specializes in rehabilitating dangerous, viscious horses, and send this animal to him or her- and if that doesn't work, I'd give some thought to putting him down before someone gets really hurt or killed. That someone could very well be YOU, you know- and don't think it won't happen, because no matter how attached you are to this horse, HE is NOT attached to you- and HE WILL HURT YOU if he gets a chance to do so. And by the way- YOU may never have abused the horse that you know of- but how much do you REALLY know about his entire history? You said yourself that you have only had him 6 months- well, where did you get him from, and who sold him to you? Did you TALK to that person prior to buying the horse, and try to find out WHY he was for sale? Horses with problems as serious as this are often sold on at very cheap prices to unsuspecting buyers, simply because the animal is usually a HUGE liability, the way this horse is. Switching bits will not solve your problem- running away like this, spinning, bucking- these are LEARNED behaviors, and this horse has been in the habit of doing these things for YEARS, I suspect. That's most likely WHY he was for sale- the person who had him probably got fed up with the responsibility and didn't want to put up with his behavior any more, so when you came along and said you could do something with the horse and take him off her hands, she was only too glad to agree.



I'm sorry to have to say this, but I think you have been TAKEN- and in a way that is ANYTHING but pleasant.Whoever sold you this horse deserves to spend some time in JAIL, or perhaps, visiting you in the hospital when the animal hurts you- because clearly, that person KNEW what kind of temper this horse had, and failed to inform you about it. The only suggestion I have is the one I mentioned earlier- send him to a specialist, or put him down. Not a pleasant choice, I know, but paying for euthanasia is one HELL of a lot cheaper than paying for a funeral- or for a lawsuit when the horse hurts someone you know.



Enough said.

Answer 7

I would try making him run until he stops when you ask him, not at his convenience. I would also try the pelham bit (with a double rein, not with a bit converter), or even better a full bridle (bridoon and snaffle). Has he ever worked with a curb bit before? If not I would suggest starting with a full bridle, then going to a pelham, as a it can be confusing to a young horse to have mixed signals from the pelham bit.

Answer 8

You have done the right thing by trying to keep him on non-harsh bits. But there are those horses who just have hard mouths. I have used pelham bits and done so very successfully. I used to ride a big warmblood who was an ex eventing horse (class A) and when he would get under saddle he'd be so amped up (rearing to go actually) that a light bit wouldn't do anything. So we switched to a pelham. He worked fine on that but we found that a kimberwick worked better (that was what he was trained with) and was easier to use! Good luck and I hoped this helped.

Answer 9

You know what I do in that situation ? If the horse wants to run.. let him run. If you're in an arena that is large enough for it, or in a pasture, dig your heels in, hold on tight, and make him run. He'll try to slow down eventually, but DO NOT LET HIM. If he wants to run, he's going to run, but only on your time. My TWH mare had a speed issue, and so I decided.. if she wants to run, fine, run.. But you get to stop when I SAY SO. Don't run him to death [you sound like you have a good head on your shoulders so I would trust that you wouldn't], but make him work into a sweat. Do that until he realizes that when you pull on that bit, you MEAN IT. If he tries to trot, even, when you're walking, and doesn't respond to your "whoa"'s or "easy"'s, make him run. Of course, make sure he's warmed up and fit enough for it, but if all the prerequisites are passed.. it's the best way to teach a horse the meaning of "whoa".



Another thing I do is when my mare gets speedy, I turn her in tight circles (only after she's supple and warmed up very well). Pull the rein so that you are directing his head, and tuck your hand against your hip. If he continues to move forward, he can't for long, and he'll turn. Keep him turning for 6-8 circles, then switch. He'll be forced to slow down, and give him slack as he slows down, to reward him, eventually letting him stand in place.



Good luck !



Oh -- I just read the details you added in full.. you're not comfortable with his speed ? Then my little "make him run" suggestion wouldn't work, would it ? Hah ! Well, when he spins at the fences, that's when you dig your heels in HARD (it sounds mean, but it gets their attention), pull his head away from the wall, and (if you have a crop) smack the crap out of his shoulder. If he's bucking, and if you have a good seat and can hold on, just sit it out, and don't let him stop afterwards, or he'll associate bucking with getting to have a break. Don't get off after a buck. Don't stop after a buck. Make him work HARD until you get what you want.



p.s. I know this sounds harsh and all, but I've been riding for close to twelve years now, and I've ridden many hot-headed, stubborn, thick-skulled horses, and this works best. A horse thinks, "hey, I think I'm going to run now", and when he gets tired, he wants to stop.. well, when you get mad and say, "oh yeah ? you want to stop ? not on my watch, buddy", that's when progress is made. He learns that when he kicks it up a notch, you're going to make him work his toosh off, and only when he obeys does he get a light workout, or a nice, calm workout.



Hope this helps !

Answer 10

NEVER JERK EVER!!!!!





try a gag bit. it sounds horrible and most people who think they know things hate them but what it does is just what you're doing. start asking nice and then get harder and harder as the shank gets longer. it may take awhile but he will eventually figure out that if he stops right away he can avoid the extra pressure.





also try this. when he starts out, if he takes off real fast, stop and back a few steps. If he starts slow keep going but if he speeds up stop and back then then get right back into the gait. this gets old for you fast but if you stick with it it will slow him down.

Answer 11

If you move to a stronger bit - you're just asking for problems. The things your horse is doing now are training issues. Moving to a stronger bit is the quick fix but how long will it take him to take the bit in his teeth and ignore a pelham? I ride western and I've seen people get into long-shanked cathedral bits (just google it - they're worse than you can imagine) because they made the move to a stronger bit.



That being said- it's great that he has forward movement and it's fantastic that he's an athletic and willing to work kind of horse. What you need to do is find ways to harness his energy. The way to do this is to start with training for respect and - to use a dog word - obedience.



I am retraining a 17h off the track thoroughbred. She's used to biting down on that bit and running like the dickens.Here's what I'm doing - a warmblood that is by the very nature of its breeding less flighty than a Thoroughbred should get the same if not better results.



You say he likes to trot fast and canter speedily? One rein stop the big guy. The minute he tries to speed up - give him a bump - if he doesn't take the hint - circle him. If that doesn't work - do a one rein stop (literally pull his face to your leg if you have to. You have to do this instantly. There's no waiting - you know he's not going to slow on his own.



Another option is to lunge before you ride. A 'cowboy' uses this to take the buck out of a horse but simply getting his body engaged and giving him a little time to dink around, use some energy can actually be beneficial as his mind is more ready for you when it's time to get on top. You obviously can't lunge before every ride - but while you're re-training it's perfectly acceptable. I have lunged spirited horses (at their own pace) for up to a half hour before mounting at times. Wanting to canter lasts a max of 10 minutes for most horses. You make them canter an additional minute or two - just past their comfort zone - and then you make them jog for a good long time. It's not abuse - it's just letting him know - "hey big guy - i am the boss and i don't care if you've winded yourself - you get to canter another 120 seconds. Two minutes won't kill him.



Once you get circles and one rein stops to fix your big issues - try getting half halts. These are a really effective way of checking your horse - asking him to slow down and collect himself - think about the way he's moving - and wait for your instruction before moving on. Half halts don't have to be 100% - start with a 10% and if he refuses - circle him.



A note about circling. Sometimes one circle isn't enough. He's still trying to speed around your 20 m circle? Cut him in tighter and make him go until he realizes going faster isn't going to get him anyplace.



Best of luck with your horse. It is possible for a very forward horse you will need a stronger bit so that minimal rein is used - but for goodness sake spend at least a month or two religiously circling him every time he speeds up. Once you graduate you're running the risk of going harsher and harsher until you'll have no ability to stop him.



Fix this now with training corrections while he's still in a silver loose ring! You might also speak to a trainer if available and get some suggestions from them. A lot of people are willing to dole out advice - pick out what is best for you and your horse and stick to it. 1 ride won't fix him. 100 rides will make him better. If he's chargy and big - this could be a life long issue but he won't be a safe horse to ride until you can get him to listen to you.

Answer 12

well if he's in pain, that's bound to be the reason he's acting up. it may be a pinching saddle, too tight bridle, sore legs, or anything. make sure he gets checked all over by the vet and that your tack fits him. if he still acts up, i would switch to the pelham. they are stronger, and it gives you more leverage on your horse's mouth.

if he's hyper, turn him out or lunge him. that will get his extra bucks or gallops out, so that he can be ready to work for you. when he gets fast, keep your leg on him. what he wants you to do is take your leg off so that he doesn't feel any control. if you use your leg, it will be a lot more effective than just jerking the rein. ask him on, so that he really has to extend his stride.



good luck!

Answer 13

The reason you have been getting no improvement isn't because the bit is too mild. A well-trained horse slows, stops, turns and gait changes with NO bit at all.



So consider this if you want helpful suggestions.... Do you do each of the following things and require obedience every time and follow up within one second with a correction if you don't get it?



On the ground after pick up from pen or stall before tacking up:



- Require horse to leave stall or pen at your speed and not barge past you. Correction for rushing: yank lead rope hard back and back him up then make him stand. Repeat until horse complies.



- Stop every few steps. Correction for less than immediate stop: yank lead rope hard back and then turn and back him up.



- Require horse to walk beside you at your speed. Correction for rushing: yank lead rope hard back. Repeat as needed.



In the alley while tacking up:



- Horse stands ground tied with halter and lead rope and does not step forward or back or wave neck or bow down. Correction for each infraction with lead rope to move him immediately to correct position or walk him in hard circles or back him up or shake lead rope.



- Horse does not move when being saddled or is corrected sharply with lead rope.



Lunging:



- Horse complies with all gait change cues immediately without head tossing or rope pulling. Correction: for speeding up, whip noise or whirl of lunge rope; for down transition, lunge rope yank; corrections repeated more and more firmly until correct action occurs - without reissuing cue.



Mounting:



- Horse does not move forward or sideways. Correction, sharp yank on reins



- Horse does not move backward. Correction, slap on rump.



Under saddle:



- At walk and trot, horse stops instantly when requested through voice cue or legs open. Correction: half or full halt with reins as needed



- At walk, horse can walk one stride stop next and repeat at irregular intervals. Correction: half or full halt with reins as needed



- At trot, horse trots some small number of strides and drops to walk when requested. Also can trot some small number of strides and stops when requested. Correction: half or full halt with reins as needed.



If you answer any of the above "no", then you need to work on those, at least up through lunging, until the horse flawelessly complies.If you don't have compliance here, the bit doesn't matter because the horse's training and obedience is flawed at the foundation.



Now if these gaps are closed, once you are in the saddle, during training, when you need to use a half halt or full halt to correct a horse who is not listening for whoa or slow down cues from your legs, you may have to briefly use a harsher bit. But why not wait until you have the foundation in place and have no other choice?



The strength of the lightest horse has to be harnessed with training or the human will never win obedience. Your horse isn't "determined to have his way", he's been trained (maybe accidentally) to ignore cues and aids. You are going to need to focus on his training gaps (not riding) until he's obedient in all areas. And you will need to reinforce this training every day and every moment you're with him.



Excess speed is usually a sign of a horse who's afraid. What is your horse tense about? Are you pulling on his reins without giving him relief? Are you driving him forward while holding the reins? Do you continue to correct him after he complies? All of these can devalue the stop cue - any can make him afraid.



So think carefully and take a trainer's perspective. Your horse isn't a car with poor brakes. It's always a lot more complicated than that.

Answer 14

Well my thought would be before changing bits, get him to stop. I have a 5y.o. paint mare who didn't like stopping kind of sounded like what you are writing. I did change her bit. But nothing that harsh. She never wanted to stop. So what i did is i didn't ask her to stop. I would canter and let her run as fast as she wanted to. Then when she wanted to stop i would push her. I wanted her to stop on my terms. I just tired her out that she would want to stop. After a while she learned what i wanted. Now i didn't have to go to a harsh bit. but she stops and stands when i ask.

Answer 15

teach him to soften to thebit by standing still at the stop pulling your reins down and waiting for him to give you slack on the reins, thats what i did, look it up on google

Answer 16

Ok. So all i can really suggets is a harsh bit.

If he is getting dangerous then get him a harsh bit..

Answer 17

no ive never owned a horse but this is what i would do. i would see how he does with a hackamore... i know you use bits but is he does good then in a few weeks maby a small bit and then slowly graduate up to the kind of bit you want. i don't really know but it might work. :] if it does then tell me and ill call myself a Genius! good luck