What's your opinion on spur stop horses?

Question

I've had a couple spur stop horses in the past and I was wondering what people thought of them, and why they think that about those horses.

Answer 1

I am fond of the spur stop training. I know Avila is great, and I learn a lot from reading what he writes, but I think he is missing the boat on this. Have you watched a top end reiner? They stop on a loose rein, they don't call it a spur stop, but they quit pushing, sit deep, and freeze their legs and hands, and voila! that beautiful slide. Well not automatically, but after lots of good training. Spur stop is not for every horse in every event, but I know people who run speed events on their spur stop horse, and others who show over fences on their spur stop horse. Riding the brakes is WRONG and leads to problem areas, but using the spur to cue is just another button you can put on your horse.



What do you usually do when you want your horse to stop? This pertains to both english and western riders, but actually, especially english. You kinda "freeze" right? You quit following the horse's motion, you create a "fence" with your hands, and you also wrap your legs around him, and "freeze" your legs. You ride them into the stop so that they do not stop all strung out. A spur stop is EXACTLY the same, except that you do not, since you are riding with a loose rein, pick up the reins. You stop yourself from head to foot, and the horse follows suit. For show purposes, it is refined from this, but this is the principle.



How do you turn your horse? In the simplest terms, you increase pressure with your outside leg in addition to rein cues, right? This is spur trained. "Spur trained" is a concept it does NOT have to use spurs, my horse will perform about the same without spurs, I just use them to reduce my leg movement to touch his sides.



How do you cue for a back? You use your legs there too, right?



How do you cue for a half-halt to slow or collect the horse, you use your legs to push him up into the fence of your hands right? With the western spur trained horse, the "fence" is understood, since contact is not allowed, ones back and seat communicate the fence.



Instead of thinking about the horse blowing, I read another fan of spur stop that stated something like: "what does an experienced rider do when they are frightened that the horse is running off? They try to grip tighter with their legs, and often drop the reins, or grab onto the saddle, and can't pull on the reins....on a spur stop horse, this is cue to stop, where as on a conventionally trained horse, the frightened beginner is telling the horse to go faster." I can't imagine trying to ride bridleless on a not spur trained horse.



"Spur training" is just an extension of what we have always done. 40 years ago, I prided myself on my horses who would back up from the line up with me just picking up on the reins, not and contact, and squeezing them to back, now I don't even have to pick up, no fundamental difference, only a refinement. My old horses always would turn on leg pressure, now they will slow and stop also.



ANYTHING can be over done to the point of abuse. I HATE to see a person who "rides the brake" and only lets the horse go forward a step by relaxing leg pressure, that is just wrong. On my spur broke horse, to whom slow is his natural gait, I have to bump him more than I should (because I have spoiled him) to make him move on! Then I "freeze/squeeze to call for a change in gaits down. To quote another trainer "bump to go, squeeze to slow." Not that backwards to me, given all that I said above.

Answer 2

I like the idea of a spur trained/spur stop horse. I show WP, and it would be great for me to be able to use only my spurs (which can be used very discreetly) to slow/stop my horse in the pen rather than having to use rein, which is more obvious. My horse is not spur trained, however, because I also show English as well as multiple western performance classes, and I'm pretty sure I'd get mixed up or do it wrong (I've ridden a spur stop horse before and it was certainly a learning experience). He is also occasionally ridden by my mother, who would have no idea what to do (she's just now starting to show in these events). Our older gelding simply wasn't spur stop trained when we bought him. My sister's mare isn't either, though she's still really green. However, both my gelding and my mom's gelding will stop or slow with voice commands, and of course both are super responsive to leg, seat, and rein aids, so it's not totally necessary.



So basically, I think it depends on the horse and the person. If it's a horse that's going to be ridden by a lot of people, having a spur stop on it might be a problem. But if it's a one-person horse and that person is used to a spur stop, I think it's great.

Answer 3

They are great, until someone who isn't trained to ride that way gets on them, or until something goes wrong.



1. The training isn't conventional or 'natural', so most riders don't correctly ride that way.



2. The horses are taught to 'suck back' when touched with the spurs, which over time results in a very blah, very stiff, very 'dropped' movement without lift or balance.



3. When those horses blow, they really really blow. I've seen professional trainers admit that they would never ride such a horse without a bridle outside the pen, because of the potential for real danger. That's not my idea of a safe horse. If spur breaking doesn't make the horse better broke than a horse ridden the normal way, then why do it?



4. Some riders just never will have a steady enough leg to ride a spur broke horse, so marketability on such a horse is lower.



5. That much leg on a horse all the time results in tail swishing and ringing-- not a good thing. I realize most pleasure riders (but not all!) deaden their horse's tails anyway, but still, the point is valid. The horses don't appear comfortable with the spur, which is good enough for me.



Numbers 5 and 2 are the primary reasons I wouldn't spur break a horse. It's a show horse thing, and if your show horse is gonna look unnatural or unhappy, then why on earth use that particular technique?

Answer 4

The fact that you're relying on something contrary to the way most ALL horses are ridden, it is absolutely rediculous to me.



I can stop a reining horse with just my body, I don't need reins to stop a reiner and you don't need reins to stop a WP horse if you have enough control to do it properly. At the most, with the shank in a QH's mouth anyway, you should be able to do the slightest wiggle with a rein, even if it is just the outside or that furthest from the judge.



I believe that WP's world of spur stops and Dressages way of Rollkur is dispicable. I would not ride a horse who has had either done to them, nor would I accept that as a valid training method.



I apologize if I upset you, if you believe in it then so be it. It is entirely my opinion. There is nothing wrong with the horses, EXCEPT that some other trainers become instantly confused when they hop on a horse, put their legs on and it sucks back. It ends up causing confusion and abuse on the horse. If you want to train a horse for spur stop then you damn well better keep it forever.

Answer 5

I personally don't like the spur stop. It would confuse me and sure as heck would confuse the heck outta my horse. My trainer taught me a good sentence to remember...your legs create the energy, and your hands control the energy. It shouldn't be the other way around. It's a cheat, a shortcut, no matter how you look at it. Even if the horse was trained that way since day 1 that horse has a huge gap in his training. Shame on the trainers that teach it.

Answer 6

i think that it is a great move for an advanced rider, so as long as the rider knows the proper cue, i say great! plus it looks SO much better in WP or WR when you don't have to move your legs a ton to get your horse to stop.

i like reining stops for beginners better though, cause its something that everyone can do, all you have to do is lean back & put your legs out.

so i like both!



EDIT- Bob is great, he is NSBA pres now right? but i have found that many older trainers have a tendency to not move with the times & get "stuck" in their old ways.



i think that horses should have BOTH reining & spur stops, & that the spur stops should be the main cue, but in an emergency, you can use the reining stop.

Answer 7

Spur stop controversy (and the draped rein)...........



A new fad, seen in nearly all breeds, requires a horse to perform with an extremely loose, draped rein at all times. Western pleasure horses have always traveled on a fairly loose rein, but in recent years the visible "drape" in the rein has become exaggerated.[4] However, it requires time, good riding ability, and careful training to correctly teach a horse "self carriage," particularly to slow or stop by responding to only a rider's use of seat position (and sometimes voice) without tightening the reins.[5] Thus, an alternative method of training to slow a horse down without the use of the reins gave rise to a new, highly controversial, technique known as the "spur stop," an unconventional method used by some trainers to train horses to slow down and stop when spur pressure is applied.



Because spur, heel or leg pressure is generally used to ask a horse to go faster, this technique is sometimes referred to by its critics as "riding the brake" and is frowned upon by several major western pleasure sanctioning organizations since at least 2003, when AQHA put out a series of videos on correct and incorrect style and way of going for western pleasure horses, showing a "hit list" of undesirable traits not to be rewarded in the show ring, with the spur stop leading the list.[6]



This controversy in Western Pleasure circles resembles the debate over Rollkur in the field of dressage, particularly over the question of whether the practice constitutes animal abuse.



Experts differ on the validity of the spur stop. As stated by trainer Bob Avila: "the spur stop is “the worst thing ever invented. If I were to get a horse in for training that had a spur stop on him, I could do one event on him, period: Western pleasure.” Taking the opposing view, Mark Sheridan, an AQHA judge and trainer, has said: "You should not have any problems with the spur stop, and the transition to whatever events you decide to do with [the horse]. Personally, I put a spur stop on just the stop and back, on my western riders."



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(Just some thoughts from two of the top trainers in the nation...for myself, no way will I ever put a spur stop on a horse.....A spur stop IS a big deal....nothing to poo poo;you'd best know how to ride it).

Source(s):

Bob Avila, Mark Sheridan



EDIT: ...... Sorry: Bob's been in the business too long to disrespect/downplay what he has to say about spur stops...his experience is vast; from all the cow horse classes, including reining, to halter, WP and HUS horses....he rode all arounders when they WERE all arounders...He has a vast experience to draw on, he has trained under the masters, Don Dodge, Tony Amaral, and his father, Don Avila, is a legend. When he states he doesn't like a method of training he has 40 plus years experience and 35 AQHA World champions to back up his opinion. He is a master of the Vaquero tradition. When he, Todd Bergen, Les Vogt, Shawn Flarida, Al Dunning speak, I listen.



http://www.bobavila.net/customer/pages.php?pageid=5



"You want your horse to stop....quit riding him"; Les Vogt.



EDIT: Amen Karen z